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<DIV>But we can order pizza on our amateur radios. I wouldn't go
much farther then that though.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Daniel Stevens KL7WM </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 2/13/2013 7:57:32 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rob@quailsoftltd.net writes:</DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Short answer – I did read the
mission <g>. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">In this instance I had no
knowledge of Seattle vs NW Mesh and looked up the wrong
one.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">There are will still be the
need to make ongoing distinctions though, and your long answer even can create
some situations where the line would be blurred. As an example –
using hamWAN as an Internet survival backup for amateur purposes is one thing
– i.e. – during a disaster contacting another ham or looking up information on
a website. Shopping via hamWAN on the other hand, crosses the commerce
line – i.e. – you can’t order a pizza on ham radio.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I see this as one of those
ongoing conversations that will probably be more of an issue as we get started
than once things “firm up”. Once we start having some demonstrated
amateur uses it will help illustrate the drawn
lines.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Rob<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
PSDR [mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bart
Kus<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:06 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Puget
Sound Data Ring<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [HamWAN PSDR] system
usage<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>An excellent point to bring up, and one I've struggled with
in the past as well.<BR><BR>Short answer: read <A
title=https://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-index.php?page=Constitution&structure=HamWAN#Article_0_Mission
href="https://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-index.php?page=Constitution&structure=HamWAN#Article_0_Mission">Article
0</A> of the <A
title=https://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-index.php?page=Constitution&structure=HamWAN
href="https://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-index.php?page=Constitution&structure=HamWAN">Constitution</A>.
It describes HamWAN's mission.<BR><BR>Longer answer with rationale for
HamWAN's mission:<BR><BR>A useful and vibrant computer network is one that
allows like-minded people to communicate together. In the case of the
Internet, we have the ultimate wide deployment across geographical regions and
social groups. It is everywhere and provided to everyone. From
there, you see communities forming around their collective
commonalities. Topic-specific message boards, mailing lists, IRC
channels, web sites/apps, etc. We cannot hope to compete with the speed
of terabit fiber-optics, or the budgets of global ISPs to be all things to all
people.<BR><BR>I, however, am a nerd. And I enjoy the company of my
fellow nerds. It is these nerds that I would like to exchange data
with. I believe that passing a basic amateur radio license exam is a
good filter for the quality of nerd that I'd like to see on the network.
Such a requirement also broadens the adoption of amateur radio itself in our
society filled with computer nerds, who would love to play with digital
networks, but don't have a ham license. This is a good thing. The
compu-nerds might learn new things in the realm of radio along the way.
Voice net check-ins burn at my computer-literate soul, and the injection of
computer-savvy nerds into the amateur radio hobby will fix these archaic
procedures. So there you have (part of) the rationale for requiring all
participants to be licensed radio amateur operators.<BR><BR>I'm also a bit of
an independent. Why should I put my communications needs solely in the
hands of large corporations and the Internet? Most of my communication
is local. I would be very happy to achieve independence from the
corporate teat for at least my local communications needs. On this kind
of independent network, WE define the rules. Comcast wants to charge
$200/mo for a 50Mbit downlink feed. I think we can beat that if we build
it ourselves. And make it symmetrical at the same time, so none of this
10Mbit uplink limit. Nerds are not just consumers, they're also
providers of data services. The common Internet services target your
typical mom & pop audience, who are dominantly consumers of data.
I'd love to live in a world where I can carry around a <A
title=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NinjaTel_Van
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NinjaTel_Van">ham-phone</A>, my car is a
mobile ham-hotspot, and my house is tied into the HamWAN, all at a
significantly lower cost than the for-profit commercial offerings, while being
tailored to my nerdy needs. And there you have some rationale for "free
digital communication" as a goal. I can go on for quite a while on this
subject. :)<BR><BR>I'm also a bit of a survivalist. I like knowing
exactly how my communications facilities work and how to fix them.
Should my Internet or cell service go down, I like knowing I have another
completely independent system of communication. The other emergency
communications groups share this attitude, and it makes them great partners in
building this network. These are the driving forces behind the emergency
communications part of HamWAN's mission.<BR><BR>Did I mention I'm a nerd?
:) Doing the R&D to bring this type of network to life is great
fun. A long focused effort by a group of nerds will (and already has)
produced valuable results. These need to be published so that others may
benefit from our experience in building their own networks of this kind.
And there you have mission point #2, about conducting and publishing
R&D.<BR><BR>The publication of this knowledge also ties in with point #4,
of educating and spreading knowledge. Point #4 is also supported by
requiring participants to pass ham exams.<BR><BR>Lastly, I realize HamWAN will
not be in control of all such like-minded networks. These types of ideas
(both technical and organizational/social) can spread like wildfire, and
independent groups are sure to spring up. When groups' networks grow and
start touching each other, I want to be sure they are compatible. For
this reason the last sentence of the mission statement is that HamWAN will act
as a coordinator of interoperability. The recent decision to go with
AMPRnet block registration solves a large part of the interoperability
problem. But there are other considerations, such as the universal
adoption of the NV2 protocol which would make a roaming ham's equipment
compatible with other groups' networks. We may also have to implement an
inter-network registration system for roaming hams. There are analogous
systems in the cellular telco world. If we develop & establish a
universal system of digital ham identity at least, that would go a long way
even if we fail on the protocol adoption front. Someone suggested using
the LoTW client certificate, which is not a bad idea at all. ARRL
provides a rigorous identity verification system in LoTW signup, although I'm
not sure how good they are at expiring said certs in a timely manner should
the registration lapse or be revoked by the FCC.<BR><BR>Phew! I'm out of
words. There's so much work ahead it's scary. <A
title=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE">Recruiting recruiting
recruiting recruiting</A>! There's no way I can implement the entirety
of this vision for the future alone.<BR><BR>--Bart<BR><BR>On 2/12/2013 9:16
PM, Rob Salsgiver wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal>Ok….. time for more questions, now that the marathon
meeting is over <g>.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>A number of times I’ve heard potential uses that seem to
blur the line between amateur and commercial, so my question is – how do we
draw the line?<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>As an example – connecting to the Seattle MeshNet.
As I read it, the MeshNet is non-amateur. Are we looking to be a
generic carrier grade ISP? If so, then this will work, but we won’t be
able to use amateur frequencies to do it. Similar question for
connecting firehalls down south – if we are sticking to strictly amateur
uses, then the usage by laptops and other devices at a firehall would be
limited to amateur related uses – i.e. – no non-hams using
it.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>It may be that I’m just missing a big concept here, but I
see a lot of blurring of the lines in conversation, and I think it needs to
be better spelled out before we get in front of too many
folks.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I’ll stop with this one for now, rather than continue to
show my ignorance and unfamiliarity <g>.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Rob<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>PSDR mailing list<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A title=mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org href="mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org">PSDR@hamwan.org</A><o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A title=http://mail.hamwan.org/mailman/listinfo/psdr_hamwan.org href="http://mail.hamwan.org/mailman/listinfo/psdr_hamwan.org">http://mail.hamwan.org/mailman/listinfo/psdr_hamwan.org</A><o:p></o:p></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PSDR
mailing
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