<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">KY9K de AE7SJ<br>
<br>
Awaiting your response, but I'll address Gerard's comments here
since he's waited quite a while.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 3/14/2013 12:01 AM, Gerard Hickey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite"><br>
<div>First of all, (Bart I am not trying to start a fight, just
making an observation)</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No one is trying to start a fight, but we do have inherently
contentious issues to discuss. So let's keep a cool head and keep
the communication going for the good of the community.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div>HamWAN is not a mesh network. It is an architected network
with links (both real and planned) spread out throughout the
region.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is where we hit the inevitable confusion over the phrase "mesh
network" which I addressed at the top of my first response so there
wouldn't be any such confusion. Let me find it ... <br>
<br>
<tt>-=[ QUOTE ]=-<br>
First, let's speak the same language.</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> </tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> There's a lot of confusion around the word "MESH". I'm
also not sure why it's always capitalized. It's not an acronym as
far as I know. The term "mesh network" describes nothing more
than the logical topology of a network. There's a really good
write-up on this at the </tt><tt><a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking">wikipedia
page</a></tt><tt>. I'm pretty sure that when you (and others on
this email) use the phrase "mesh network" it is not the wikipedia
definition you're intending. It means something different,
including:</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> </tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> 1) Using a common RF channel</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> 2) Promiscuous neighbor discovery + association</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> 3) Automatic IP configuration based on MAC</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> 4) Nearly open node authentication</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> 5) Omnidirectional operation</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> 6) </tt><tt><a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_distribution_system">WDS</a></tt><tt>-style
operation</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> </tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> These are the typical traits of a </tt><tt><a
href="http://seattlewireless.net/">SeattleWireless</a></tt><tt>
style mesh network (which, BTW, has been attempting to bootstrap
itself for the last 13 years). This type of definition of "mesh
network" is quite a different animal from the canonical mesh
network definition (wikipedia's, derived from network theory).</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> </tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt> The reason I want to make the distinction clear is that
nearly all large networks in the world are indeed mesh networks,
but nearly none of them possess the qualities of 1-6. So when I
say something like "</tt><tt><a
href="https://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-index.php">HamWAN</a></tt><tt>
is a mesh network", I want it to be clear that I'm referring to
the network topology only (the wikipedia definition). I'm not
sure what is the right word to describe the other type of network;
perhaps capitalizing all the letters is a good differentiator
after all. :)</tt><tt><br>
-=[ /QUOTE ]=-<br>
</tt><br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div> Two of the qualities of a mesh network is self-healing and
zero configuration.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
So, admittedly I did pull the list of the above 6 properties out of
my butt. It's my best guess. Is there actually a formal list
somewhere? Please provide it. I don't think there's actually any
clear divide between MESH or not, it's more like a spectrum of
features that are there or not.<br>
<br>
I would argue the "zero configuration" claim is not actually true.
There's configuration in MESH nodes, it's just stored in the node
router, much as it will be in HamWAN client routers. You set things
like frequency, bandwidth, SSID. In fact, as I understand it,
there's usually a custom firmware that's uploaded which comes with I
don't know how many settings that I'm guessing are set "just right"
so that things work nicely. So here, we're not so different, as
both client router devices will have a config set.<br>
<br>
The other way I can interpret this is that once you get your fully
configured client router device, you simply attach it to an antenna
and it finds and connects to the wireless network. This is exactly
the scenario we're enabling for HamWAN as well, it's not unique to
NW-MESH. OK, maybe one slight difference: in the HamWAN case there
will be user credentials you enter into the router for it to
authenticate onto the network. But isn't there some OLSR key in
NW-MESH? I'm really not up to speed on that as much as I should be.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div> Yes, HamWAN does have self-healing properties but it is an
engineered healing mechanism rather than a intrinsic part of the
technology.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm failing to understand the difference between "engineered" and
"intrinsic" here. If we require that HamWAN run OSPF, this becomes
an intrinsic property of HamWAN. OLSR is REALLY close to OSPF. I
would say in the self-healing aspects, the networks are not very
different at all.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div> I also can not just by the same hardware that HamWAN is
using, turn it on and point it to a HamWAN point of presence and
have it work. There are specific network and routing parameters
that need to be set in order to come up on the network.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I addressed this "zero config" claim above, but do correct me if I'm
wrong.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div> Just the same as if I have a configured HamWAN installation,
I could not move it to another part of the region, point it to
another point of presence and be back on the network (actually
there is one or two ways, but it makes the routing butt ugly). <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is actually one of the scenarios we're definitely enabling. If
you have a static IP or subnet, it will follow you around on the
network no matter what sector you connect to. In one of my previous
replies I also described how that static (and publicly routable!)
address(es) can follow you to partner networks as well through use
of VPN peering. Nice, ya? :) This is why we're using beefy
routers, cuz we expect the routing tables to be large.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With these statements, I am just trying to provide a clearer
distinction that Bart started in the second or third email of
this thread. By no means am I trying to elevate one technology
or the other as a superior technology. I think that there is
plenty of room for every one to experiment and play with the
various technologies. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I whole-heartedly encourage any activity which gets hams playing
with more modern digital stuff. The whole concept of "superior" or
"best" is relative to your goals. That's why I'm trying to get some
sense out of the NW-MESH crowd of what the goals really are. A
mission statement or something. Like I've said, I think our goals
are actually pretty close in most areas, and it's the differences
I'd like to explore to see if we can minimize them or respect them
and work on a peering model. If we develop a clear understanding of
each others' goals, only then we can begin the technical work
necessary to align the networks together.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have stated since I first heard Bart speak about the HamWAN
project last year at Summer Gathering that it works very well as
a backbone technology. I think it compliments the NW-MESH work
very well in the sense that it can tie together various NW-MESH
networks and provide the backbone between them. And NW-MESH
provides an economical way for hams to participate in a
community network. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The economics of onboarding to HamWAN (~$200) vs. NW-MESH (~$30) is
a fair point. I can envision a neighborhood cluster of $30 nodes
sharing a $200 uplink. But for this to become reality, we must
agree on how to align. I'm starting to sound like a broken record.
:) The initial thinking of "just give us a tunnel" is a raw deal
for HamWAN, so we must work harder to strike a better balance. I'd
like HamWAN clients and MESH clients to be mutually directly
addressable, for one. I have other concerns about route injection
into HamWAN, client authentication on NW-MESH and potential
collisions with people's RFC1918 space networks since HamWAN does
intend to announce routes into people's home networks. I'd also
like to understand the QoS, default gateway, DNS, IPsec and IPv6
stories. There's a LOT of work to sort out. Let's not waste time
in jumping to it.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Do you have a favorite low-noise public
meeting location with power + wifi? Starbucks is sounding
likely.</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have never seen a Starbucks be low-noise. Anyone of them I
have ever been is has always been fairly loud with all the sound
reverberating of every flat surface (I swear that every
Starbucks employee is taught to bang pots on every surface
behind the counter). I am sure that I can be proven wrong as I
am not a coffee drinker and do not visit Starbucks that often. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What I will offer is conference rooms at ebay in Redmond. We
have plenty of white boards and projectors / 60 monitors for
presenting so that everyone does not have to crowd around one
laptop. We can meet pretty much most nights or weekends except
for Tuesdays and the 2nd and 4th Monday of the month. This
Friday and Saturday is also out since I will be at the Cascadia
IT conference. I will also be in California the week of 3/25.
Beyond that I think I can pretty much make anything else work. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm game. Since I work in Redmond, I can be available there any
weekday (after work), and am willing to make weekend trips whenever
others can do likewise. Let's get the ball rolling here. During
the first meeting(s) whoever is attending should be prepared to
discuss their goals and philosophy about these networks.<br>
<br>
--Bart<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D0BE1DDC-5B7D-4BCA-9C85-E210B9195F8D@kinetic-compute.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>73.<br>
<div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-size: medium; ">
<div>--<br>
Gerard Hickey / WTØF IRLP:3067/Echolink:529661<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hickey@kinetic-compute.com">hickey@kinetic-compute.com</a><br>
425-395-4554</div>
</span>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>