<div dir="ltr">Bob,<div><br></div><div>I noticed a couple of issues with your study. First, you assumed a 2 dBi gain for the HamWAN sectors. This is quite pessimistic. You can use published and measured data to calculate the gain much more accurately with Radio Mobile. Bart measured 14 dBi peak gain from the Laird SAH58-120-16-WB and Ubiquiti advertises 19 dBi peak gain for the Ubiquiti AM-5G19-120. I have published .ant (Radio Mobile antenna pattern) files for each of these antennas:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=99&page=Laird%20SAH58-120-16-WB&download=y">https://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=99&page=Laird%20SAH58-120-16-WB&download=y</a><br></div><div><a href="http://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=224&page=Ubiquiti%205G-19-120&download=y">http://www.hamwan.org/t/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=224&page=Ubiquiti%205G-19-120&download=y</a><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Here are the sector antenna models in use at each of the HamWAN sites:<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Capitol Park: Laird SAH58-120-16-WB</div><div class="gmail_extra">Snohomish County DEM: Laird SAH58-120-16-WB</div><div class="gmail_extra">Haystack: Ubiquiti AM-5G19-120</div><div class="gmail_extra">Baldi: Laird SAH58-120-16-WB</div><div class="gmail_extra">East Tiger: Ubiquiti AM-5G19-120</div><div class="gmail_extra">Gold: Ubiquiti AM-5G19-120</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_extra">If you set up Systems in Radio Mobile for each of these, it will calculate the gain at non-peak angles.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_extra">Also, the receiver threshold you used is too optimistic. This doesn't influence your calculated rx level (the important number), but it will give you a "green line" when signals are well below the noise floor. You can find receiver thresholds published in the Mikrotik datasheets for the various modems we use. The RB912 modem we recommend for MIMO stations has a receive threshold of -96 dBm. This is another parameter in the System setup in Radio Mobile.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><a href="http://i.mt.lv/routerboard/files/RB912-150924141406.pdf">http://i.mt.lv/routerboard/files/RB912-150924141406.pdf</a></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra">Lastly, I noticed is you have Haystack at the wrong position. HamWAN's site is not at Haystack Mountain, but on a nearby ridge. The position is 47.808024°, -121.727227° (published at <a href="http://www.hamwan.org/t/Haystack">http://www.hamwan.org/t/Haystack</a> ). If you use that position for your calculation I think you will be pleasantly surprised.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">If you share the latitude and longitude for the LWHC Bridle Trails site I can run these calculations for you with the sites and systems I already have plugged into Radio Mobile.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Tom KD7LXL</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 5:57 PM, Bob <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ke7jl@comcast.net" target="_blank">ke7jl@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Ed,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Don Sayler, W7OXR and I did a study to determine the feasibility of using HamWAM to handle the IRLP link at the LWHC repeater at the Bridle Trails site. We used Radio Mobile to rule out Hay Stack and Baldi It did show “Green Lines” for Capitol Park and Pain Field. One of the club members had access to a drone and we got permission from the city to fly it near the tower and tower. We did several 360 video and different altitudes. At 120 feet we were able to clear the trees on “Bridle Trails Ridge” and could see the ridge of Capitol Hill in Seattle. At about 90 feet we could no longer see Seattle. We came to the conclusion that Pain Field would be iffy at best and any misalignment due to winds or an earthquake would put if off line.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Capitol Park to Bridle Trails<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><img width="624" height="573" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D177D1.A3B344C0"></span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Pain Field to Bridle Trails<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><img width="624" height="568" src="cid:image002.jpg@01D177D1.A3B344C0"></span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="all"></span><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Haystack to Bridle Trails<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><img width="624" height="548" src="cid:image003.jpg@01D177D1.A3B344C0"></span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Baldi to Bridle Trails <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><img width="624" height="570" src="cid:image004.jpg@01D177D1.A3B344C0"></span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I do have a RouterBOARD Metal 5SHPN and dish antenna if you want to try getting into the network from your locations.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Bob Morrisson KE7JL<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:ke7jl@comcast.net" target="_blank">ke7jl@comcast.net</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="-150996710__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> PSDR [mailto:<a href="mailto:psdr-bounces@hamwan.org" target="_blank">psdr-bounces@hamwan.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ed Morin<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 6, 2016 4:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> Puget Sound Data Ring<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Report from Mike and Key Electronics Show and Fleamarket<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Nigel. I can nose around about Cougar. Do you know what the issue(s) is(are)? There are several ham repeaters there of course.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">As for locations. These are the fire station addresses and GPS coordinates that one of our other members put together:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Station Address City Zip Lat/Long<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">11 - HQ 8450 161ST AVE NE REDMOND 98052-3848 47.677913, -122.124938<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">12 4211 148TH AVE NE BELLEVUE 98007-3119 47.648426, -122.143646<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">13 8701 208TH AVE NE REDMOND 98053 47.680206, -122.063499<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">14 5021 264TH AVE NE REDMOND 98053-2718 47.651962, -121.987793<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">16 6502 185TH AVE NE REDMOND 98052-5039 47.664105, -122.093651<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">17 16917 NE 116TH ST REDMOND 98052-2246 47.703403, -122.114135<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">18 22710 NE ALDERCREST DR REDMOND 98053-5845 47.692245, -122.03717<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">My thinking is to have a "core network" of links between stations 12, 13, and 17. Of all the stations, 13 seemed to be the most promising. Station 12 is practically next door to Microsoft's main campus and the noise level is huge there, but it potentially has great shots to several other stations which makes it attractive to having in the core. Station 17 has become somewhat of a "hub" station for ARES -- at least we continue moving in that direction; trees could be an issue there. One or two of the other stations might have coverage potential, but it's all showing even more spotty on the map than these others. (Of course if we were able to access a node on Cougar, everything changes for the better...)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">In terms of height, there are a number of factors that may limit us, BUT the fire stations have "hose towers" (for hanging hoses to dry after use) which are pretty tall. I think 20 - 30 feet might be doable. The lower the better from a "political" point of view, the higher the better from a "technical" point of view. ;-)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Any thoughts would be appreciated.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">(I have been using the <a href="http://ubnt.com/airlink" target="_blank">ubnt.com/airlink</a> site for doing some of this analysis as well as some other tools. A recent test we did seemed to confirm its validity although it was a bit optimistic -- that is, leaning more towards the "theoretical" which isn't surprising.)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Nigel Vander Houwen <<a href="mailto:nigel@nigelvh.com" target="_blank">nigel@nigelvh.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Howdy Ed,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">RE #1: Do you have the GPS coordinates and how high the antennas would end up being? If so, we can look at the models and see what they look like.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">RE #2: We have gear on East Tiger, but Cougar is pretty much out. Cougar would be a nice site to add, but us, and several others on our behalf, have never been able to get site owner buy in. If you’re able to push that forward, we’d be happy to work with you on that.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">Nigel<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 6, 2016, at 15:43, Ed Morin <<a href="mailto:edmorin.jr@gmail.com" target="_blank">edmorin.jr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I replied to Dan who encouraged me to post to the list, so here I am. :-)<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">I am part of the City of Redmond ARES group and we are working towards implementing a HamWAN link to a city network we hope to put together. We were allocated a /24 network and our intentions are to (eventually) multi-home for redundancy as well as provide AP's locally (for ham use). <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">Anyway, I was intrigued by two things Dan noted in his post which he thought others on the list might have some ideas they could share.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">1. The Redmond area -- particularly where our fire stations are -- is very spotty in terms of coverage as it appears on the homepage coverage map. We would love it if somebody could help in determining what our "real" chances are for getting HamWAN links at a few of our fire stations. I have studied the coverage map on the homepage, but I assume it's not "perfect" when coverage is showing "spotty" (particularly in the Redmond area). We're looking to get an end-user "setup" to use for "surveying" with, but do not have that yet since it would be out of our own pockets until we can demonstrate a proof-of-concept to the city (after which we could likely get reimbursed). My present thinking is that fire stations 13 and 17 are possible candidates although (if memory serves) there are two others that may have a shot at it as well. So, any ideas on how we could work to nail that down would be great. If somebody has a "portable" unit, maybe we could just try it sometime to see if a signal is visible...<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">2. Putting a core node on Tiger Mt. might be potentially very helpful to us. A node on Cougar Mt. might be even more so; have any of you looked into that possibility? It appears to have better Eastside coverage than Tiger and a better "view" of Redmond up the Sammamish valley. This might be attractive to the Microsoft / MicroHams crowd...<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">Again, any thoughts you have on this would be appreciated...<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">-Ed<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">(WB7UBD)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">-Ed<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">(WB7UBD)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>PSDR mailing list<br><a href="mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org" target="_blank">PSDR@hamwan.org</a><br><a href="http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr" target="_blank">http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>PSDR mailing list<br><a href="mailto:PSDR@hamwan.org" target="_blank">PSDR@hamwan.org</a><br><a href="http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr" target="_blank">http://mail.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/psdr</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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